4.4BSD

From: "emanuel stiebler" < emu@ecubics.com>
To: < pups@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: 4.4BSD
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:21:38 -0700
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Hi all,
why this version isn't in the pups archive ?

cheers,
emanuel

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon < tls@rek.tjls.com>
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <19990125210512.A22884@rek.tjls.com>
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References: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350>
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On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:21:38PM -0700, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> Hi all,
> why this version isn't in the pups archive ?
> 
> cheers,
> emanuel

It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD
distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive.

What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last
time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond
to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output
from CSRG.

Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system?  Is it feasible
to do so now?  I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would
actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would
VAX, using the old VM system?  I'd assume hp300 would work, since it
was the primary development platform, right?  Had the LBL SPARC port
been integrated?

-- 
Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls@rek.tjls.com
	"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:35:13 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199901260235.VAA03105@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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emanuel stiebler < emu@ecubics.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
> why this version isn't in the pups archive ?

Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness
of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick Copeland
has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me.

Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading
_ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If not,
please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can
take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK).

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:23:32 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199901260323.WAA03123@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Sender: owner-pups@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Thor Lancelot Simon < tls@rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD
> distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive.

See my previous posting.

> What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last
> time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond
> to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output
> from CSRG.

You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives
CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it
existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2
tape was pressed.

> Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system?

You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored
on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some
point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different
matter.

> Is it feasible
> to do so now?

I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the
4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree.

> I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would
> actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would
> VAX, using the old VM system?

I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But
definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the
kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back-
porting it is not something I would volunteer to do.

> I'd assume hp300 would work, since it
> was the primary development platform, right?

Yes.

> Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated?

Yes.

You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to
bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point
in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from
True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor.

If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am.

BTW, it's not just that I suddenly declared myself to be the new CSRG. I earned
this title, not just assumed it. Marshall Kirk McKusick himself (the previous
maintainer of CSRG) acknowledges me as the new principal maintainer and
architect. Oh, and he doesn't even object to my decision to undo all of his and
others' 1988-1995 work with the SCCS Time Machine. He said himself in a private
E-mail that he would love to see the golden old non-bloated system resurrected.

I have used the term "True UNIX" several times in this message. Let me explain
what I mean. While others may view the history of UNIX as a tree (you hear
about UNIX history tree diagrams all the time), I view it as a straight line.
The straight line of _mainstream_ True UNIX development looks like this:

V6 (Bell) -> V7 (Bell) -> 32V (Bell) -> 3BSD (UCB) -> 4.0BSD (UCB) -> 4.1BSD
(UCB) -> 4.2BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe (UCB) ->
4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 (Michael Sokolov) -> future Quasijarus releases (Michael
Sokolov).

For each release the responsible entity is indicated in parentheses. There are
several things worth noting here. Notice how after V7 and 32V the torch of True
UNIX development moves from Bell to UCB, never to return to Bell again. This is
because everything Bell did after that (System V and such) deviates from the
True UNIX ideology and loses the True UNIX torch. In late 1970s or early 1980s
UCB picks up this torch and carries it until 1988. In 1988 UCB starts deviating
from True UNIX too with the evil spirit of POSIX and everything, and loses the
torch. The torch was laying on the ground from that point until the 27th of
December 1998 when I picked it up with the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 release. Now I'm
carrying it into the next millennium.

Check out the Quasijarus Project WWW page referenced in my mail signature.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:10 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon < tls@rek.tjls.com>
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <19990125234310.A1809@rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls@rek.tjls.com
References: <199901260323.WAA03123@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon < tls@rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> 
> > It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD
> > distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive.
> 
> See my previous posting.
> 
> > What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last
> > time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond
> > to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output
> > from CSRG.
> 
> You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives
> CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it
> existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2
> tape was pressed.
> 
> > Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system?
> 
> You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored
> on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some
> point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different
> matter.
> 
> > Is it feasible
> > to do so now?
> 
> I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the
> 4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree.
> 
> > I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would
> > actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would
> > VAX, using the old VM system?
> 
> I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But
> definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the
> kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back-
> porting it is not something I would volunteer to do.
> 
> > I'd assume hp300 would work, since it
> > was the primary development platform, right?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to
> bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point

My interest is not in "resurrecting CSRG".  If I were into that kind of thing
I'd just join Jews For Jesus.  My interest is pretty much purely historical.

> in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from
> True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
> back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
> post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor.
> 
> If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
> maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
> development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
> never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
> release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
> maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
> successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am.

I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself,
at least, a waste of time.  But if it's something _you_ want to do, I
encourage you to do it, I suppose.

All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
exposed to the userland C namespace.  The chaos which would ensue should
a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
set is horrifying to contemplate.

Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol,
nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like.  History is history.  Pretending
to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work
done.  At least that's my personal take on it.

I think you'd find a substantial number of people who thought that the
"True UNIX" line ran through either SunOS 4 or 9th and 10th Edition, were
you to take a poll of as many wizards as you could summon.  But it's a silly
thing to argue about, which is why I'll assert no position at all on that
issue.  Similarly, I have no interest in arguing about Common LISP
versus Scheme or vi versus Emacs.  Please don't tempt me with a discussion
of X versus MGR or C versus C++ and I'll avoid lecturing at you about
_my_ religious hot buttons. :-)


-- 
Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls@rek.tjls.com
	"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"

Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990112221347.006a9f90@pop.calweb.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:13:50 -0800
To: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov), pups@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Rick Copeland < rickgc@calweb.com>
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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No problem!




At 09:35 PM 1/25/99 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>emanuel stiebler < emu@ecubics.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> why this version isn't in the pups archive ?
>
>Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness
>of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick
Copeland
>has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me.
>
>Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading
>_ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If
not,
>please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can
>take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK).
>
>Michael Sokolov
>TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
>4.3BSD-* Maintainer
>Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
>Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
>ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu
>TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
>Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
>
>

From: Warren Toomey < wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901262236.JAA05730@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt@cs.adfa.oz.au
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Just my $0.02 worth.

I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly to
give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases.
He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and
b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases onto
the CD set.

I am always prepared to distribute sub-parts of the 4CD set to people if
they want it, and I'd be very happy to put into the PUPS Archive the most
popular 4BSD releases. In fact, this has been done, to some extent.

I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either
via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been
recompensed for his work.

However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to see,
and it will be added!

Cheers,
	Warren

P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least
a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints.
Thanks.

From: "emanuel stiebler" < emu@ecubics.com>
To: < wkt@cs.adfa.oz.au>, "Unix Heritage Society" < pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Why not 4.4BSD?
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:20:17 -0700
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Hi,

----------
> From: Warren Toomey < wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> To: Unix Heritage Society < pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
> Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 3:36 PM

> I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly
to
> give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases.
> He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and
> b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases
onto
> the CD set.

That's the explanation i waited for, and i understand that.

> I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either
> via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been
> recompensed for his work.

NO problem with that.

> However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to
see,
> and it will be added!

Sorry, for the "noise" following my I thought "simple" question. I only
wanted to know, why the 4.4 releases were not in the archive. They are part
of the AU license anyway, and i thought, they are missing.

> P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least
> a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints.

I prefer one list, THIS one. The problems we had in the last 24 hours are
my fault.
Sorry for this, i should know that sometimes a "dumb" question start a
flame/war about color/religions & BSD versions.

Sorry about this.
emanuel

So a now PLEASE back to our business, enjoying our nice PDP's ;-))

From: Warren Toomey < wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901270251.NAA01515@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: PUPS Mail list: rules of behaviour
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST)
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All,
	I hate to do this, however I think we could do with just a few
rules of behaviour for the PUPS mail list. Here we go...

1) The mailing list is for discussion on various topic areas related to
   UNIX history, its development, care and feeding of all UNIX systems and
   their hardware, and announcements of useful information related to the
   above.  It is generally inclusive, rather than exclusive. However....

2) There should be little or no discussion of major systems' development,
   including announcements of new versions. Instead, systems developers
   should create a communications channel to target their own audience.
   For example, 2.11BSD has the newsgroup comp.bugs.2bsd.

   To that end, I have just created a mailing list for Quasijarus,
   quasijarus@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, and associated Majordomo structures.
   Quasijarus users should join this list so that developments and
   announcements about this system can reach them.

   In other words, interested parties are expected to monitor these 
   mailing lists or newsgroups, in order to follow development and
   announcements.

3) Discussion is to be civil and not religious, where possible. There
   have been a large number of UNIX systems and flavours. There is no
   single `best' system.

4) Offensive postings: if a person's mail postings offends someone,
   then they should email me, the list maintainer. If I get a number
   of complaints, I will ask the original author to not be so offensive.
   If I need to warn a person twice, then I will begin to censor their
   list postings.

I will repost this message if/when it becomes necessary. I am still
collection suggestions with regards to the charter of the list and if
we need to make separate lists etc. The rules above, though, apply to
the list as it is now.

Thanks all,
	Warren