The Unix Society

From: Warren Toomey < wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808021118.VAA11148@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: The Unix Society
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST)
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Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
I nominate the name   The Unix Society

Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like
Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals.

While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-),
I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs,
ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the
mailing list!!!

My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from
Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of
days.

Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.

	Warren

Message-ID: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930
From: Greg Lehey < grog@lemis.com>
To: wkt@cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation < pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
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On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 21:18:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> I nominate the name   The Unix Society
>
> Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like
> Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals.
>
> While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-),
> I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs,
> ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the
> mailing list!!!
>
> My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
> have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from
> Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of
> days.
>
> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.

I don't see the difference in case between UNIX and Unix as
significant in defining what part of speech it means, and we've
already discovered that lawyers prefer UNIX, but will accept Unix if
they want to make a case about violating the conditions of use of the
name.  I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
not to use it.

More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
anything to do with the history of the system.  For all it says to the
outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.

OK, PUPS may be wearing thin, and I wasn't really serious with OUPS (I
tried, unsuccesfully, to find an expansion for OOPS), but I think we
need to look a little further if we want to change the name.

Greg
--
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From: Warren Toomey < wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 08:55:53 am"
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In article by Greg Lehey:
> > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> > I nominate the name   The Unix Society ...
> > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
> 
> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
> not to use it.
> 
> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
> anything to do with the history of the system.  For all it says to the
> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.

Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, 
Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.

We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
/The UNIX Heritage Society/i

	Warren

Message-ID: <19980803092452.N21892@freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930
From: Greg Lehey < grog@lemis.com>
To: wkt@cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation < pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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On Monday,  3 August 1998 at  9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Greg Lehey:
>>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
>>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
>>> I nominate the name   The Unix Society ...
>>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
>>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
>>
>> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
>> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
>> not to use it.
>>
>> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
>> anything to do with the history of the system.  For all it says to the
>> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.
>
> Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
>
> We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
> /The UNIX Heritage Society/i

Sounds a lot better.  Time for some other comments, when the rest of
the world wakes up.

Greg
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Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 20:52:42 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
Sender: owner-pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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   Warren Toomey < wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote:
> While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen
> :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of
> different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in
> mind when mailing to the mailing list!!!

   Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the
society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from
"retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform.

> My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
> have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms.

   Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX.

> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> I nominate the name   The Unix Society

   and

> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.

   I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover
freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or
equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't
cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX
already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should
be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People
using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups
available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor
patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible
home for them.

   Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same
thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed
UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss
licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere
preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and
subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who
want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own
mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's
what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of
day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in
such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads
to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should
be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope
should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license.

   Just my two bits.

   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov@blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

Message-ID: <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:28:56 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" < djenner@halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner@halcyon.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Michael Sokolov < msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
CC: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
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I think he has a point here:

  Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
  (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers.  In fact,
  an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
  (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.

If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
system software.

As to the first P, if not PDP(-11), then what it should refer to
is the original strain of Unix--the Primordial Unix.  Hence:

Primordial Unix Preservation Society.

(I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!)

Dave

Michael Sokolov wrote:
> 
>    Warren Toomey  wrote:
> > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen
> > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of
> > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in
> > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!!
> 
>    Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the
> society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from
> "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform.
> 
> > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
> > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms.
> 
>    Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX.
> 
> > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> > I nominate the name   The Unix Society
> 
>    and
> 
> > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
> 
>    I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover
> freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or
> equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't
> cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX
> already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should
> be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People
> using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups
> available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor
> patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible
> home for them.
> 
>    Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same
> thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed
> UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss
> licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere
> preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and
> subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who
> want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own
> mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's
> what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of
> day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in
> such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads
> to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should
> be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope
> should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license.
> 
>    Just my two bits.
> 
>    Sincerely,
>    Michael Sokolov
>    Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
>    ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov@blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

Message-ID: <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930
From: Greg Lehey < grog@lemis.com>
To: djenner@halcyon.com, Michael Sokolov < msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Cc: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
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On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> I think he has a point here:
>
>   Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
>   (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers.  In fact,
>   an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
>   (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.

That's rather conservative, isn't it?  If we had done that previously,
there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX.  If we
do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.

Greg
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From: Warren Toomey < wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030150.LAA13307@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 11:13:38 am"
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In article by Greg Lehey:
> On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> > I think he has a point here:
> >
> >   Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
> >   (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers.  In fact,
> >   an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
> >   (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
> 
> That's rather conservative, isn't it?  If we had done that previously,
> there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX.  If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.

Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?

	Warren

From: Warren Toomey < wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030154.LAA13334@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society
To: wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199808030150.LAA13307@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 11:50:42 am"
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In article by Warren Toomey:
> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
And lobby SCO for more encompassing cheap UNIX source licenses too.
I forgot to add this sentence.
 
 	Warren

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I don't think I'm saying what you think I said?  I not trying to
restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit.

But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe
I'm not clear about what I said!?

Dave

Greg Lehey wrote:
> 
> On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> > I think he has a point here:
> >
> >   Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
> >   (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers.  In fact,
> >   an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
> >   (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
> 
> That's rather conservative, isn't it?  If we had done that previously,
> there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX.  If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.
> 
> Greg

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On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 19:41:58 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> I don't think I'm saying what you think I said?  I not trying to
> restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit.
>
> But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe
> I'm not clear about what I said!?
>
> Greg Lehey wrote:
>>
>> On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
>>> I think he has a point here:
>>>
>>>   Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
>>>   (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers.  In fact,
>>>   an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
>>>   (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.

OK.  The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis
systems.  We'd like to get, say, System V as well.

Greg
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	id AA18511; Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:15:15 -0400
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:15:15 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9808030315.AA18511@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
Sender: owner-pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk

   Greg Lehey < grog@lemis.com> writes:
> [...] an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX.  If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.

   Excuse me, sir, I have to make a point here. The SCO license _DOES_
cover 32-bit UNIX(R), namely 32V! 32V is the first version of UNIX for 32-
bit machines aka VAXen, and it's the mother of EVERYTHING known today as
West Coast UNIX, from 3BSD to the freebies, whether for VAXen or other 32-
bit CPUs.

   As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been
the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why
SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much
trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO
license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is
the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's
code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on
PDP-11s, try to explain this to people!

   Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs
on more than just PDP-11s.

   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov@blackwidow.CWRU.Edu