Newsgroups: news.groups
Path: sparky!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!pashdown
From: pash...@javelin.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown)
Subject: Re: NetNews/CD: USENET News Available on CD-ROM
Message-ID: <1992Jan20.221554.2149@javelin.sim.es.com>
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation
References: <1721@sphinx.sunworld.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1992 22:15:54 GMT
Isn't this a blatant violation of UseNet policy? Not only are they
advertising on the net, but I would think that a lot of people don't
appreciate their postings being sold for profit without their permission.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
cdn...@sterling.com (Netnews/CD) writes:
>Sterling Software is proud to announce a new service, NetNews/CD, which
>makes USENET News available on CD-ROM. Now, with NetNews/CD, the wealth
>of information available via USENET is archived and readily available
>when you need it, not just when it arrives. With NetNews/CD you will
>be able to keep years of USENET News on your shelf so that you can access
>and benefit from it at your convenience.
>With nearly 3000 active newsgroups and more being created daily, one of
>the major problems with USENET News has been the massive amounts of data.
>Most sites do not have the disk space to store it all on a daily basis,
>let alone a yearly basis. Those that do receive a full feed are forced
>to use relatively short news expire times to free up disk space for
>incoming daily news. Many sites have had to limit the number of groups
>they subscribe to due to the speeds of their modems, the costs of long
>distance phone calls to an upstream USENET feed or the size of the
>available disk space. NetNews/CD solves these problems by making nearly
>600 Megabytes of USENET news available on CD-ROM each month.
>The purpose of the NetNews series is to assure that the valuable information
>which passes through USENET daily is not lost, as is the case in most
>newsgroups today. The monthly CDs are generated on the first of each month.
>Yearly subscribers receive 12 months of USENET news on CD-ROM and they
>also receive the yearly NetGems special issue. The current NetGems CD-ROM
>contains the X Window System Version 11 Release 5 sources, the Free Software
>Foundation's GNU software as well as the USENET comp.sources.* archives.
>It also contains alt.sources and vmsnet.sources archives. Besides those
>archives, NetGems also contains an archive of the Request For Comments
>(RFCs) available from the NIC which are the basis for most of the existing
>Internet protocols. The software and RFCs on the NetGems CD were gathered
>on December 29, 1991.
> X11R5 - X Window System Release 5, Patchlevel 8
> gnu - GNU software
> rfcs - Request For Comments
> usenet - USENET News source archives
> alt.sources, alt.sources.amiga,
> alt.sources.patches, comp.archives,
> comp.archives.admin, comp.sources.3b1,
> comp.sources.amiga, comp.sources.apple2,
> comp.sources.atari.st, comp.sources.bugs,
> comp.sources.games, comp.sources.hp48,
> comp.sources.mac, comp.sources.misc,
> comp.sources.reviewed, comp.sources.sun,
> comp.sources.unix, comp.sources.x,
> news.answers, unix-pc,
> u3b.sources, vmsnet.sources
>Specifics:
> Initially NetNews/CD will be distributed for Sun platforms with
>ISO 9660 support becoming available in March. The January and February
>CDs will be made available in ISO 9660 format at that time. NetNews/CD is
>available in both a yearly subscription or monthly issue rate.
>Costs:
> Yearly subscription + NetGems - $349.95 US plus shipping.
> Individual monthly issues - $39.95 US plus shipping.
> NetGems, Best of '91 - $49.95 US plus shipping.
>Volume discounts are available.
>Shipping:
>NetGems begins shipping the first week in February, and January's NewNews/CD
>begins shipping on February 15. Subsequent monthly CDs are being shipped on
>the 15th of each month.
>
>Phone inquiries concerning orders and technical support questions may be
>made between 8:00 AM and 5:00 PM CST, Monday through Friday at 1-800-XXX-XXXX
>(or 1-800-XXX-XXXX). The FAX number is 1-XXX-XXX-XXXX. There is also
>an electronic mail address:
[Numbers deleted by me]
> cdn...@sterling.com or uunet!sparky!cdnews
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Big boo-boo IMHO.
>The US Mail address is
> Sterling Software
> NetNews/CD
> 1404 Fort Crook Road South
> Bellevue, NE 68005-2969
>
>If you have any suggestions or comments we want to hear them. Please feel
>free to call, write or send email.
>-ends
--
Practice random violence and senseless acts of stupidity
DISCLAIMER: My writings have NOTHING to do with my employer. Keep it that way.
Pete Ashdown pash...@javelin.sim.es.com ...uunet!javelin.sim.es.com!pashdown
Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!uknet!slxsys!ibmpcug!mantis!mathew
From: mat...@mantis.co.uk (Lieutenant 030)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Message-ID: <owPweB6w164w@mantis.co.uk>
Date: 21 Jan 92 15:51:35 GMT
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Lines: 68
In <1992Jan20....@javelin.sim.es.com> of news.groups,
pash...@javelin.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown) writes:
> Isn't this a blatant violation of UseNet policy? Not only are they
> advertising on the net, but I would think that a lot of people don't
> appreciate their postings being sold for profit without their permission.
It's not just a violation of "Usenet policy", it's almost certainly illegal.
Those who post copyright material to Usenet have obviously given their
consent for the material to be published via the usual Usenet
mechanisms. However, it is doubtful that they can be considered to
have given their permission, either explicitly or implicitly, for the
material to be duplicated and re-published on CD-ROM.
> cdn...@sterling.com (Netnews/CD) writes:
> >Sterling Software is proud to announce a new service, NetNews/CD, which
> >makes USENET News available on CD-ROM. Now, with NetNews/CD, the wealth
> >of information available via USENET is archived and readily available
> >when you need it, not just when it arrives. With NetNews/CD you will
> >be able to keep years of USENET News on your shelf so that you can access
> >and benefit from it at your convenience.
[...]
> >Yearly subscribers receive 12 months of USENET news on CD-ROM and they
> >also receive the yearly NetGems special issue. The current NetGems CD-ROM
> >contains the X Window System Version 11 Release 5 sources, the Free Software
> >Foundation's GNU software as well as the USENET comp.sources.* archives.
> >It also contains alt.sources and vmsnet.sources archives.
[...]
> > usenet - USENET News source archives
> > alt.sources, alt.sources.amiga,
> > alt.sources.patches, comp.archives,
> > comp.archives.admin, comp.sources.3b1,
> > comp.sources.amiga, comp.sources.apple2,
> > comp.sources.atari.st, comp.sources.bugs,
> > comp.sources.games, comp.sources.hp48,
> > comp.sources.mac, comp.sources.misc,
> > comp.sources.reviewed, comp.sources.sun,
> > comp.sources.unix, comp.sources.x,
> > news.answers, unix-pc,
> > u3b.sources, vmsnet.sources
[...]
> >Phone inquiries concerning orders and technical support questions may be
> >made between 8:00 AM and 5:00 PM CST, Monday through Friday at 1-800-XXX-XXXX
> >(or 1-800-XXX-XXXX). The FAX number is 1-XXX-XXX-XXXX. There is also
> >an electronic mail address:
>
> [Numbers deleted by me]
>
> > cdn...@sterling.com or uunet!sparky!cdnews
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Big boo-boo IMHO.
>
> >The US Mail address is
>
> > Sterling Software
> > NetNews/CD
> > 1404 Fort Crook Road South
> > Bellevue, NE 68005-2969
> >
> >If you have any suggestions or comments we want to hear them. Please feel
> >free to call, write or send email.
mathew
--
"Tolkien's writing appeals also to those with the mental age of a child --
computer programmers, hippies and most Americans"
(Private Eye #785)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Path: sparky!uunet!usc!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!kadie
From: ka...@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Message-ID: <1992Jan22.085824.31210@m.cs.uiuc.edu>
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
References: <owPweB6w164w@mantis.co.uk> <1992Jan21.235546.24708@rice.edu>
<1992Jan22.061725.8840kaminski@netcom.COM>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1992 08:58:24 GMT
It would be nice to have Netnews archived. For one thing, it would
make citations to articles practical.
As for the copyright, I think people who don't want their articles on
the CD-ROM should say so. Either with a copyright notice or with email
to the company. A copyright notice in some standard form might
make no CD-ROM articles easier to identify.
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- ka...@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Path: sparky!uunet!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!cs.umn.edu!thelake!steve
From: st...@thelake.mn.org (Steve Yelvington)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Message-ID: <A1551898678@thelake.mn.org>
Date: 22 Jan 92 17:36:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: thelake.A1551898678
References: <owPweB6w164w@mantis.co.uk> <1992Jan21.235546.24708@rice.edu>
<1992Jan22.061725.8840kaminski@netcom.COM>
<1992Jan22.085824.31210@m.cs.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: thelake!st...@cs.umn.edu
Organization: St. Croix Valley C and Ski
Lines: 22
[In article <1992Jan22.0...@m.cs.uiuc.edu>,
ka...@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes ... ]
> As for the copyright, I think people who don't want their articles on
> the CD-ROM should say so. Either with a copyright notice or with email
> to the company. A copyright notice in some standard form might
> make no CD-ROM articles easier to identify.
People who don't want their articles repeated, printed out, posted on the
wall, FAXed to China, archived on WORM drives, archived on CD-ROM, quoted,
jeered at, and endlessly flamed ought not to post articles on Usenet.
There have been automatic systems archiving this data since the earliest
days of the network. Attempts to restrict the permanent recording of
network messages are not only misguided, they're about a decade too late.
--
Steve Yelvington, Marine on St. Croix, Minnesota <st...@thelake.mn.org>
Note: Mail to the .mn.org domain has been failing for about a month.
If your mail bounces, try cs.umn.edu!thelake!steve.
It's probably another side effect of the Super Bowl.
(I'm praying for a blizzard on Super Sunday.)
Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!uknet!stl!robobar!ibmpcug!mantis!mathew
From: mat...@mantis.co.uk (Lieutenant 030)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Message-ID: <k7a3eB22w164w@mantis.co.uk>
Date: 24 Jan 92 16:19:07 GMT
References: <A1551898678@thelake.mn.org>
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Lines: 37
st...@thelake.mn.org (Steve Yelvington) writes:
> [In article <1992Jan22.0...@m.cs.uiuc.edu>,
> ka...@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes ... ]
> > As for the copyright, I think people who don't want their articles on
> > the CD-ROM should say so. Either with a copyright notice or with email
> > to the company. A copyright notice in some standard form might
> > make no CD-ROM articles easier to identify.
Right. Time to define a Copyright: header?
> People who don't want their articles repeated, printed out, posted on the
> wall, FAXed to China, archived on WORM drives, archived on CD-ROM, quoted,
> jeered at, and endlessly flamed ought not to post articles on Usenet.
If this is the condition on Usenet use then it should be at least stated
clearly in news.announce.newusers.
> There have been automatic systems archiving this data since the earliest
> days of the network. Attempts to restrict the permanent recording of
> network messages are not only misguided, they're about a decade too late.
As far as I can tell, nobody's objecting to the permanent recording of
network messages. What people are objecting to is the subsequent duplication
and resale of such recordings.
You can sell TVs. You can sell cable access to TV channels. You can record
TV programmes for personal use. But if you start selling TV programmes
recorded off the air onto video tape, you're going to find yourself
knee-deep in lawyers.
mathew
--
"Tolkien's writing appeals also to those with the mental age of a child --
computer programmers, hippies and most Americans"
(Private Eye #785)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Path: sparky!uunet!caen!scottie.engin.umich.edu!rcj
From: r...@caen.engin.umich.edu (R o d Johnson)
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Message-ID: <WN=+R4B@engin.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 92 17:09:26 EST
Organization: Usenet Chief Admonisher's Office
References: <A1551898678@thelake.mn.org> <k7a3eB22w164w@mantis.co.uk>
Lines: 22
In article <k7a3eB...@mantis.co.uk> mat...@mantis.co.uk (Lieutenant 030) writes:
>As far as I can tell, nobody's objecting to the permanent recording of
>network messages. What people are objecting to is the subsequent duplication
>and resale of such recordings.
Every article on the net gets duplicated every time it's tramsmitted
from one machione to another, and some percentage of those figure in a
commercial enterprise. Every time someone logs on to a commercial
public access Unix site to read news, every time someone reads a
gatewayed article on GEnie or Compuserve, your postings are being "sold"
in much the same way these CD-ROMs are. The only difference is the
method of transmission. If I want to get a net "feed" by getting
CD-ROMs by mail and "posting" by sending email to ucbvax, is that
really so different than some of the other (sometimes pretty funky)
setups out there? Is it that different than, say, getting a feed on
mag tape? That happens, painful as it is to imagine.
--
Rod Johnson * r...@caen.engin.umich.edu * (313) 764-3103
"The spaceship looked utterly like itself" --Robert Sheckley
Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!uknet!slxsys!ibmpcug!mantis!mathew
From: mat...@mantis.co.uk (Lieutenant 030)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Message-ID: <7V38eB22w164w@mantis.co.uk>
Date: 27 Jan 92 19:05:41 GMT
References: <WN=+R4B@engin.umich.edu>
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Lines: 36
r...@caen.engin.umich.edu (R o d Johnson) writes:
> In article <k7a3eB...@mantis.co.uk> mat...@mantis.co.uk (Lieutenant 030)
> >As far as I can tell, nobody's objecting to the permanent recording of
> >network messages. What people are objecting to is the subsequent duplicatio
> >and resale of such recordings.
>
> Every article on the net gets duplicated every time it's tramsmitted
> from one machione to another, and some percentage of those figure in a
> commercial enterprise. Every time someone logs on to a commercial
> public access Unix site to read news, every time someone reads a
> gatewayed article on GEnie or Compuserve, your postings are being "sold"
> in much the same way these CD-ROMs are. The only difference is the
> method of transmission.
No, the main difference is that postings distributed by the conventional
Usenet mechanisms are eventually expired and don't reappear, whereas
postings reduplicated and redistributed on the CD-ROM can be resold for
an indefinite period of time.
> If I want to get a net "feed" by getting
> CD-ROMs by mail and "posting" by sending email to ucbvax, is that
> really so different than some of the other (sometimes pretty funky)
> setups out there?
It depends if you keep the CD-ROMs and subsequently sell of copies of the
data on them to other people when the articles concerned have long since
expired.
mathew
--
Just another would-be Mac owner put off by Apple's monopolistic practices / If
you know where I can buy the CD "In Mysterious Ways" by John Foxx, please send
me email / Message for Kodak: Bring back Dan Bredy! / My PGP RSA public key is
available on request / Desperately seeking CD of "U2" by Negativland / 4 lines
Newsgroups: news.admin
Path: sparky!uunet!usc!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utzoo!henry
From: he...@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Message-ID: <1992Jan27.234849.4394@zoo.toronto.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1992 23:48:49 GMT
References: <WN=+R4B@engin.umich.edu> <7V38eB22w164w@mantis.co.uk>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
In article <7V38eB...@mantis.co.uk> mat...@mantis.co.uk (Lieutenant 030) writes:
>No, the main difference is that postings distributed by the conventional
>Usenet mechanisms are eventually expired and don't reappear, whereas
>postings reduplicated and redistributed on the CD-ROM can be resold for
>an indefinite period of time.
Aha, here we have the heart of the problem: mathew doesn't want his past
postings coming back to haunt him! :-) "This year you're saying black is
mauve, but *last year* you said black was plaid! Gotcha!"
He also evidently hasn't heard of archive sites. Yes, there are sites
that archive even his articles. (What a waste of tape... I'm glad we're
no longer one of them.)
--
"Breakthrough ideas are not | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
from teams." -- Hans von Ohain | he...@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!uknet!slxsys!ibmpcug!mantis!mathew
From: mat...@mantis.co.uk (Lieutenant 030)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Message-ID: <m6JBFB5w164w@mantis.co.uk>
Date: 29 Jan 92 16:11:21 GMT
References: <1992Jan27.234849.4394@zoo.toronto.edu>
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Lines: 33
he...@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
> In article <7V38eB...@mantis.co.uk> mat...@mantis.co.uk (Lieutenant 030)
> >No, the main difference is that postings distributed by the conventional
> >Usenet mechanisms are eventually expired and don't reappear, whereas
> >postings reduplicated and redistributed on the CD-ROM can be resold for
> >an indefinite period of time.
>
> Aha, here we have the heart of the problem: mathew doesn't want his past
> postings coming back to haunt him! :-) "This year you're saying black is
> mauve, but *last year* you said black was plaid! Gotcha!"
>
> He also evidently hasn't heard of archive sites. Yes, there are sites
> that archive even his articles.
Or at least, the ones that haven't been Henry Spencered by defective software.
No, you've missed the point. Either that or you're being deliberately obtuse
in order to get a gratuitous flame in.
There's a world of difference between my archiving "Twin Peaks" on videotape
for my own use, and my making copies of the archive and selling them to
people for profit. If you don't understand that, I suggest you try selling
copies of recordings of TV programmes. See how long it lasts before you
get a phone call from the TV company.
mathew
--
Hail Eris! / "Our whole economy's based on fear and death; how long can we get
away with this?" --- Jello Biafra / Message for Kodak: Bring back Dan Bredy! /
PGP RSA public key available on request / Desperately seeking Negativland's U2
CD / Just another would-be Mac owner put off by Apple's monopolistic practices
Newsgroups: news.admin
Path: sparky!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utzoo!henry
From: he...@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Message-ID: <1992Jan30.210626.22687@zoo.toronto.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1992 21:06:26 GMT
References: <1992Jan27.234849.4394@zoo.toronto.edu> <m6JBFB5w164w@mantis.co.uk>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
In article <m6JBFB...@mantis.co.uk> mat...@mantis.co.uk (Lieutenant 030) writes:
>There's a world of difference between my archiving "Twin Peaks" on videotape
>for my own use, and my making copies of the archive and selling them to
>people for profit.
Let's explore this "world of difference". Does it make a difference if it
is not being done for profit? Or if it is being done by a "non-profit"
corporation like UUNET (which definitely can price its services at more
than cost, but cannot return the resulting revenue to investors)? If so,
then I suggest we focus on the "profit" part, and forget silly debates
about whether archiving and redistribution is proper.
Does it make a difference if you're not making a profit but the CDROM
duplication service is? Why?
Does it make a difference if the redistribution is being done immediately?
If not, bear in mind that Usenet feeds go by many different communications
media, and magtape is among them. If so, how immediate is "immediately"?
Would it be acceptable to put a month of news on CDROM and ship it to a
friend? A year? How is this different (ignoring the "profit" issue)
from what is being proposed?
Does it make a difference if the redistribution is selective? If so,
how selective does it have to be before you start objecting? Is someone
doing "innocent" redistribution justified in excluding, say, alt.flame?
What if the person on the other end has asked to only see, say, Chris
Torek and Doug Gwyn in comp.std.c? Is that okay? How much difference
if you're redistributing to several friends and trying to set policies
that are acceptable to all of them, rather than customizing it to each?
Does it make a difference if the stuff has all been on-line since it
arrived, or if you have to pull it off archive tapes to make your CDROM?
What about if you skip the CDROM part, and make it available online for
a fee? (Bear in mind that there are plenty of public-access Usenet
sites that charge for news reading.)
How about if you redistribute in printed form instead? Newsgroups like
comp.risks and comp.compilers have "best of" compilations printed regularly
in ACM publications. Both rec.humor.funny and comp.compilers print annual
collections.
I really think that most of the people pissing and moaning about the
concept haven't thought through just what their objections are, and just
which specific sorts of redistribution they would object to. My personal
suspicion is that all the noise about copyrights etc is a complete red
herring, and what the complainers mostly object to is people making (gasp)
a profit off of redistribution... but it hasn't occurred to them that this
happens already in a variety of ways.
--
"Breakthrough ideas are not | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
from teams." -- Hans von Ohain | he...@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
Newsgroups: news.admin
Path: sparky!uunet!ulowell!swlvx2!rayssd!anomaly!plankton.sbs.com!mpd
From: m...@anomaly.sbs.com (Michael P. Deignan)
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Organization: Small Business Systems, Incorporated, Esmond, RI 02917
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1992 02:50:23 GMT
Message-ID: <1992Feb01.025023.2855@anomaly.sbs.com>
References: <1992Jan27.234849.4394@zoo.toronto.edu> <m6JBFB5w164w@mantis.co.uk>
<1992Jan30.210626.22687@zoo.toronto.edu>
Nntp-Posting-Host: plankton.sbs.com
Lines: 13
he...@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>Or if it is being done by a "non-profit"
>corporation like UUNET
I was recently told in an e-mail letter that UUNET is not "non-profit".
MD
--
-- Michael P. Deignan /
-- Domain: m...@anomaly.sbs.com / I'm not a bigot,
-- UUCP: ...!uunet!rayssd!anomaly!mpd / I hate everyone.
-- Telebit: +1 401 455 0347 /
Newsgroups: news.admin
Path: sparky!uunet!looking!brad
From: br...@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Distribution: world,public
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1992 21:36:56 GMT
Message-ID: <1992Feb01.213656.2590@clarinet.com>
References: <1992Jan30.001944.1743@talon.ucs.orst.edu> <R61eFB9w164w@mantis.co.uk>
<R8ACSQF@taronga.com>
People who are saying "USENET is not TV, USENET is not TV" are missing the
point of the analogy. Of course they are not identical, and the technologies
involved (store and forward vs. electromagnetic emissions) are very different.
It wouldn't be an analogy if they weren't different underneath like that.
The point of the analogy is that the purposes are very similar. When you
post to USENET, it looks and feels very much like you are broadcasting
text. As far as the poster or reader is concerned, the complex store and
forward network that sends it around is a black box. When you post, you
expect it to go out to everybody tuned in to your channel, and when you
read, you expect to read everything posted to that channel.
In fact, at various times in the past USENET has been sent via satellite
broadcast because, when you look at it from one level of abstraction up,
it looks like -- nay *is* -- one to many broadcast transmission, and not
the invisible store-and-forward structure that sits underneath.
--
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366
Newsgroups: news.admin
Path: sparky!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!
news.cs.indiana.edu!umn.edu!charlie
From: cha...@umnstat.stat.umn.edu (Charles Geyer)
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Message-ID: <1992Feb2.001440.10543@news2.cis.umn.edu>
Sender: ne...@news2.cis.umn.edu (Usenet News Administration)
Nntp-Posting-Host: isles.stat.umn.edu
Organization: School of Statistics, University of Minnesota
References: <R61eFB9w164w@mantis.co.uk> <R8ACSQF@taronga.com>
<1992Feb01.213656.2590@clarinet.com>
Distribution: world,public
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1992 00:14:40 GMT
In article <1992Feb01....@clarinet.com> br...@clarinet.com (Brad
Templeton) writes:
> People who are saying "USENET is not TV, USENET is not TV" are missing the
> point of the analogy. Of course they are not identical, and the technologies
> involved (store and forward vs. electromagnetic emissions) are very different.
> It wouldn't be an analogy if they weren't different underneath like that.
>
> The point of the analogy is that the purposes are very similar. When you
> post to USENET, it looks and feels very much like you are broadcasting
> text. As far as the poster or reader is concerned, the complex store and
> forward network that sends it around is a black box. When you post, you
> expect it to go out to everybody tuned in to your channel, and when you
> read, you expect to read everything posted to that channel.
USENET is defined by what posters expect? Biff says
RADICAL D00DZ!!!!!!! THIS BBOARSD IS JUST LIKE TV!!!!!!! AND
I'M BART SIMPSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can't be serious.
Anyway you have already agreed that the CD-ROM thingy that started this
is part of USENET since they apparently aren't doing any editing.
Anyone who posts an article has implicitly given permission for the
article to be transported anywhere USENET goes, by any means USENET
uses. Since no one can even define USENET other than "everywhere
news articles go", it's hard to see how there is any limit to what
people can do in the way of simply passing on articles for other
people to read. IMHO, USENET includes printing out articles and
sticking them on my fridge with little magnets.
--
Charles Geyer
School of Statistics
University of Minnesota
cha...@umnstat.stat.umn.edu
Path: sparky!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utzoo!henry
From: he...@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Message-ID: <1992Feb2.003459.26914@zoo.toronto.edu>
Date: 2 Feb 92 00:34:59 GMT
References: <1992Jan27.234849.4394@zoo.toronto.edu> <m6JBFB5w164w@mantis.co.uk>
<1992Jan30.210626.22687@zoo.toronto.edu> <1992Feb01.025023.2855@anomaly.sbs.com>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 19
In article <1992Feb01....@anomaly.sbs.com>
m...@anomaly.sbs.com (Michael P. Deignan) writes:
>>Or if it is being done by a "non-profit"
>>corporation like UUNET
>
>I was recently told in an e-mail letter that UUNET is not "non-profit".
Actually, the situation is complex. UUNET definitely started out as a
non-profit corporation, but this caused enough complications that it
now has a for-profit half, or so I gather. This is a relatively recent
development, I think.
Note, in any case, that a non-profit corporation doesn't necessarily
sell things at cost. Such corporations can and do make "profits", i.e.
revenues substantially exceeding expenses; the distinction is what they
are allowed to do with the money. (Specifically, they are not allowed
to pass "profits" along to investors.)
--
"Breakthrough ideas are not | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
from teams." -- Hans von Ohain | he...@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
Newsgroups: news.admin
Path: sparky!uunet!looking!brad
From: br...@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Distribution: world,public
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1992 10:51:57 GMT
Message-ID: <1992Feb02.105157.9904@clarinet.com>
References: <R61eFB9w164w@mantis.co.uk> <R8ACSQF@taronga.com>
<1992Feb01.213656.2590@clarinet.com>
<1992Feb2.001440.10543@news2.cis.umn.edu>
In article <1992Feb2.0...@news2.cis.umn.edu> cha...@umnstat.stat.umn.edu
(Charles Geyer) writes:
>Anyone who posts an article has implicitly given permission for the
>article to be transported anywhere USENET goes, by any means USENET
>uses. Since no one can even define USENET other than "everywhere
>news articles go", it's hard to see how there is any limit to what
>people can do in the way of simply passing on articles for other
>people to read. IMHO, USENET includes printing out articles and
>sticking them on my fridge with little magnets.
Actually, this does not match with what most people will say when
asked for a definition of what USENET is.
After USENET had grown to a few hundred sites, we used to talk about
defining whether a site was "on usenet" or not. [Before that there really
wasn't much question, everybody knew all the sites (people used to draw
ASCII maps that fit on a screen or two) and all sites got every group.]
The question came, if you didn't get a full feed, were you on USENET?
The definition that some bandied about was, "If you get net.general, you're
on USENET." Of course, the idea was that you always got at least
net.general, so this really meant "if you get at least net.general..."
In everybody's mind, as far as I know, was the idea that getting a newsgroup
meant getting a feed of it. That meant an automatic feed of all of the group,
even if the mechanism for that automatic feed was manual. (In the
early days, Henry used to get his feed by manually dialing decvax
on his phone, and hooking up his 300 baud modem. [To be poetic, I imagine
a rotary phone. Was it, Henry?])
To my mind, getting clippings from a group, perhaps culled from a friend
via e-mail, did not mean you were on USENET. If you couldn't post back,
it could be argued you weren't on USENET.
So to me the definition of USENET has always been related to:
a) Getting newsgroups, and being able to post to them, through
b) An electronic store and forward network, that
c) Is essentially a quick-as-feasible, automatic process that does
not involve human intervention on an article-by-article basis
for the feed.
[I say "for the feed" because a moderated group has such intervention, but
only as the very first step. The feeding of the moderated group is still
automatic once it leaves the moderator.]
I would say, for example, that a site that receives CD-ROMs of USENET
a few weeks after the fact is not on USENET by virtue of getting those CDs,
and I think many would agree.
A site that gets a one-way feed and can't repost might be considered to
be on USENET, but certainly to a lesser degree than a full site.
--------
Anyway, the point here is that automatic forwarding of articles has always
been an big part of USENET, because without that, you really just
have a souped up word-of-mouthnet. The fact that articles could go
all over the net without per-article processing by a human (which you
get in a magazine or letters-to-the-editor page) was what made the net tick.
--
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366
Path: sparky!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utzoo!henry
From: he...@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Message-ID: <1992Feb3.014916.11659@zoo.toronto.edu>
Date: 3 Feb 92 01:49:16 GMT
References: <R61eFB9w164w@mantis.co.uk> <R8ACSQF@taronga.com>
<1992Feb01.213656.2590@clarinet.com> <1992Feb2.001440.10543@news2.cis.umn.edu>
<1992Feb02.105157.9904@clarinet.com>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 12
In article <1992Feb02....@clarinet.com> br...@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton)
writes:
>even if the mechanism for that automatic feed was manual. (In the
>early days, Henry used to get his feed by manually dialing decvax
>on his phone, and hooking up his 300 baud modem. [To be poetic, I imagine
>a rotary phone. Was it, Henry?])
Sure was. Touchtone didn't exist at U of T then.
We were awfully happy when we got an autodialing 1200-baud modem.
--
SVR4: proving that quantity is | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
not a substitute for quality. | he...@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
Newsgroups: news.admin
Path: sparky!uunet!ferkel.ucsb.edu!ferkel!jim
From: j...@ferkel.ucsb.edu (Jim Lick)
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Message-ID: <jim.697462084@ferkel>
Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara
References: <1992Feb03.172427.22499@kronos.com> <1HFoFB6w164w@mantis.co.uk>
<48356@sequoia.execu.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1992 11:28:04 GMT
Lines: 44
OK, I'm getting a bit tired of mathew's raving about how long
news is held. FYI, I have every article posted to comp.os.coherent,
several years of rec.arts.anime and complete archives of some
mailing lists all on disk, and all available over ftp for anyone
to look at. Nobody has ever complained about this before,
except for mathew. On the other hand, I have been thanked
time and time again when someone finds a useful bit of information
out of the archives. Fortunately this debate is mostly at this
point mathew against the world. Until there is a consensus
otherwise, this is the way news works as I see it:
1) When you post an article, you are granting
unlimited distribution rights to that article
to anyone who wishes to carry it. This license
to distribute is not limited by distribution
media or time.
2) Articles are NOT public domain. Berne
Convention says that everything created is
implicitly copyrighted. However, you have
given up your right to control distribution
of the article upon posting. You do not give
up other rights such as the right of being
identified as the author on all copies.
3) Persons or companies may derive profit from
works posted to USENET without any compensation
to author or authors of the works from which
they profit.
Please mathew, if you keep arguing that we are claiming that
articles are public domain, I'm going to really scream.
USENET is one big playground of information. If you don't
like the way we play, you are welcome to take your toys and
go home.
Jim Lick
Work: University of California | Play: 6657 El Colegio #24
Santa Barbara | Isla Vista, CA 93117-4280
Dept. of Mechanical Engr. | (805) 968-0189 voice/msg
2311 Engr II Building | "Don't be naive,
(805) 893-4113 | Don't deny what you see"
j...@ferkel.ucsb.edu | -Erasure
Newsgroups: news.admin
Path: sparky!uunet!nuchat!taronga!peter
From: pe...@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Message-ID: <TOIC3K@taronga.com>
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
References: <1HFoFB6w164w@mantis.co.uk> <48356@sequoia.execu.com>
<jim.697462084@ferkel>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1992 17:27:34 GMT
In article <jim.697462084@ferkel> j...@ferkel.ucsb.edu (Jim Lick) writes:
> 3) Persons or companies may derive profit from
> works posted to USENET without any compensation
> to author or authors of the works from which
> they profit.
So long as this doesn't violate their rights to control production of
derived works (e.g., the GPL). See your point #2.
--
-- Peter da Silva. Taronga Park BBS. +1 713 568 0480|1032 2400/n/8/1.
-- `-_-' "Have you hugged your wolf today?"
-- 'U` "I am the disk error that wastes your copy-protected program!"
Unless explicitly stated otherwise, this posting is in the public domain.
Newsgroups: news.admin
Path: sparky!uunet!ferkel.ucsb.edu!ferkel!jim
From: j...@ferkel.ucsb.edu (Jim Lick)
Subject: Re: Someone's selling news on CD-ROM again...
Message-ID: <jim.697578103@ferkel>
Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara
References: <1HFoFB6w164w@mantis.co.uk> <48356@sequoia.execu.com>
<jim.697462084@ferkel> <TOIC3K@taronga.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1992 19:41:43 GMT
Lines: 16
In <TOI...@taronga.com> pe...@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>So long as this doesn't violate their rights to control production of
>derived works (e.g., the GPL). See your point #2.
Agreed. This still fits into the USENET model I outlined in
that the sites only have distribution rights. Thus the
recipient can either distribute it or not, but cannot claim
any rights of their own to the article.
Jim Lick
Work: University of California | Play: 6657 El Colegio #24
Santa Barbara | Isla Vista, CA 93117-4280
Dept. of Mechanical Engr. | (805) 968-0189 voice/msg
2311 Engr II Building | "Don't be naive,
(805) 893-4113 | Don't deny what you see"
j...@ferkel.ucsb.edu | -Erasure
|