Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!husc6!ukma!gatech!purdue!spaf
From: s...@cs.purdue.EDU (Gene Spafford)
Newsgroups: news.misc,news.config
Subject: The USENET Backbone (Last changed: 10 December 1987)
Message-ID: <2802@arthur.cs.purdue.edu>
Date: 1 Jan 88 20:41:04 GMT
Expires: 10 Feb 88 20:41:03 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Sciences, Purdue Univ.
Lines: 89
Supersedes: <1...@uther.cs.purdue.edu>
Original-from: Gene Spafford (s...@purdue.edu)
[Most recent change: 10 December 1987 by b...@cs.vu.nl]
A Usenet "backbone" site is one which exchanges every (non-local) news
article it receives with at least two other backbone sites; or which is
the main newsfeed for a particular area (e.g., Australia) and exchanges
news with at least one other backbone site. This exchange is done
(theoretically) with minimum delay. Thus, any article submitted to a
backbone site is supposed to propagate to all other backbone sites
within a very short time period. (Under actual conditions, your mileage
may vary.) Backbone sites are also expected to be running a recent
version of the news software, provide a stable news and mail relay
service, and be maintained by reasonably adept and responsible staff.
Each backbone site normally feeds some number of well-connected
secondary sites, most of which are not "leaf" (terminal) nodes.
These secondary sites feed the news out to other distribution and leaf
nodes, and so on.
For optimal news distribution, each site should establish an "L" type
link with a site closely connected to a backbone site. This will help
ensure that any articles submitted from that site get propagated to the
whole net with a minimum of delay. Sites should *not* request a news
feed from a backbone site unless they are willing to feed at least five
or six (or more) other, non-terminal sites.
Note that some backbone links (viz., ALL--munnari, mnetor--uunet,
uw-beaver--ubc-vision, uunet--mcvax) do not carry all newsgroups,
usually meaning "talk" and some "rec" groups, but sometimes also
including "soc", "sci", "news", "misc", and "comp" newsgroups. The
European component of Usenet receives a limited number of groups from
outside Europe, as well as having a number of active "eunet"
newsgroups, and exchanges all those articles via X.25 links.
To send mail to the administrators of all the backbone sites, address
your mail to "backb...@rutgers.edu". If you wish to send mail to the
administrator of a particular site, consult the uucp map for the name
and address of the appropriate individual(s). (In Europe uucp map
entries are obtained through the national backbone's "netdir"
service).
Here is the backbone as of 1 January 1988 (dotted lines show
restricted links):
/-----------------------------------------------------\
/ \
bellcore-----ulysses alberta-----ucb-vision \ (linus)
| | | : \ |
| clyde-----cbosgd-----ihnp4 uw-beaver-----tektronix-----decvax-\
| / | : | | | \
| | watmath-----utgpu vuwcomp (europe) (mit-eddie) cae780 | | |
| | | : | | | | |
| | (ames) utzoo munnari mcvax ... kddlab ... hplabs---decwrl | |
| | / | : / : | |
| | / mnetor ... uunet----------------------amdahl | |
| | / \ | | |
| | | /---cmcl2-----philabs \---------nbires | / |
| | | / | | : | / |
rutgers-----husc6-----linus-----(decvax) : | /----ucbvax |
| | \ | \ : | / | |
| | \ | \---------------------------hao-------ames-----sdcsvax |
| | \ | | | |
\ \ mit-eddie ... (uw-beaver) | (rutgers) |
\ \ | |
\ \--------------------------------------gatech----------------------mcnc
\ /
\-----------------------------------------------------------------/
This is the European backbone (mcvax feeds all of them):
tut enea diku unido hafro tut -> Finland
| \ | / | enea -> Sweden
| \ | / | diku -> Denmark
| \ | / | unido -> W. Germany
| \ | / | inria -> France
inria----+----------mcvax-------------+ mcvax -> Netherlands
| / | \ | cernvax -> Switzerland
| / | \ | ukc -> Great Britain
| / | \ | prlb2 -> Belgium
| / | \ | i2unix -> Italy
tuvie ukc prlb2 i2unix cernvax tuvie -> Austria
hafro -> Iceland
--
Gene Spafford
Dept. of Computer Sciences, Purdue University, W. Lafayette IN 47907-2004
Internet: s...@cs.purdue.edu uucp: ...!{decwrl,gatech,ucbvax}!purdue!spaf
Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!husc6!hao!oddjob!matt
From: m...@oddjob.UChicago.EDU (Ka Kahula)
Newsgroups: news.misc,news.config
Subject: Re: The USENET Backbone (Last changed: 10 December 1987)
Message-ID: <14191@oddjob.UChicago.EDU>
Date: 2 Jan 88 16:52:17 GMT
References: <2802@arthur.cs.purdue.edu>
Organization: Very Little
Lines: 10
All right, let me put it another way this time.
How do you know that there are no sites other than the ones you list
which exchange all news with two sites that are on the list and which
run recent news software, maintain reliable mailers and are staffed
by adept and responsible people? I have NEVER seen evidence that you
check for the existence of any. If, in fact, you don't then your
so-called backbone is nothing but a club and you should not try to
pass it off as anything else.
Matt Crawford
Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!husc6!bloom-beacon!gatech!purdue!spaf
From: s...@cs.purdue.EDU (Gene Spafford)
Newsgroups: news.misc,news.config
Subject: Re: The USENET Backbone (Last changed: 10 December 1987)
Message-ID: <2844@arthur.cs.purdue.edu>
Date: 3 Jan 88 00:31:47 GMT
References: <2802@arthur.cs.purdue.edu> <14191@oddjob.UChicago.EDU>
Sender: n...@cs.purdue.EDU
Reply-To: s...@uther.cs.purdue.edu.UUCP (Gene Spafford)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Purdue University
Lines: 51
In article <14...@oddjob.UChicago.EDU> m...@oddjob.UChicago.EDU rants:
>How do you know that there are no sites other than the ones you list
>which exchange all news with two sites that are on the list and which
>run recent news software, maintain reliable mailers and are staffed
>by adept and responsible people? I have NEVER seen evidence that you
>check for the existence of any. If, in fact, you don't then your
>so-called backbone is nothing but a club and you should not try to
>pass it off as anything else.
Bad day, Matt?
No, I don't try to make the list exhaustive and neither does anyone
else for one simple reason: if admins don't want their sites listed as
a "backbone" site, they aren't. If some admin sends mail to the
backbone list and shows they meet all the other requirements *and* they
request to be added to the list, I add them to the list. Those
requirements include more that just recent software and reliable
mailers, btw.
There have been occasions in the past where we have contacted admins at
a site and noted that they meet the requirements and asked if they want
to be so designated. Two of the last three I contacted this way
indicated they did *not* want to be listed because of all the abuse
heaped upon site admins listed as "backbone," or because they wanted to
keep their news activity at a low profile, or because they didn't want
one of their news links widely publicized. I'm sorry that you "have
NEVER seen any evidence..." -- I didn't know you were supposed to be
notified whenever anyone sent mail about this.
The "backbone" is not a club in any sense, unless you consider the
Usenet itself a "club." Rather, "backbone" is an informal designation
intended to help other sites improve news propagation, find where to
obtain the latest news software, know where to obtain experienced and
(usually) cooperative assistance, provide reliable "anchor" service for
UUCP mail, and provide a very knowledgeable and experienced group of
news users and admins to discuss items of mutual interest and develop
new software. Not every site meets those requirements, nor does every
site admin want to be widely known as willing to provide such
assistance to the rest of the Usenet.
I'm not sure what you are upset about, considering that your posting is
the first thing I can recall seeing from you on the subject.
From what you wrote, I suspect that there is something in particular
that prompted your outburst, but I cannot tell from your posting what
it might be. Whatever it was, I hope this addresses it. Also, may I
suggest that next time you consider some e-mail or a more restrained
posting to discover the facts before you blast away in public?
--
Gene Spafford
Dept. of Computer Sciences, Purdue University, W. Lafayette IN 47907-2004
Internet: s...@cs.purdue.edu uucp: ...!{decwrl,gatech,ucbvax}!purdue!spaf
Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!husc6!uwvax!oddjob!matt
From: m...@oddjob.UChicago.EDU (Maxwell House Daemon)
Newsgroups: news.misc,news.config
Subject: Re: The USENET Backbone (Last changed: 10 December 1987)
Message-ID: <14203@oddjob.UChicago.EDU>
Date: 4 Jan 88 22:00:43 GMT
References: <2802@arthur.cs.purdue.edu> <14191@oddjob.UChicago.EDU> <2844@arthur.cs.purdue.edu>
Organization: Backwards R Us
Lines: 70
Gene Spafford writes:
) If some admin sends mail to the backbone list and shows they meet
) all the other requirements *and* they request to be added to the
) list, I add them to the list. Those requirements include more that
) just recent software and reliable mailers, btw. ...
)
) I'm not sure what you are upset about, considering that your posting is
) the first thing I can recall seeing from you on the subject.
Typical. A year or more ago I wrote you mail about this. You never
replied. About 5 months ago I posted. You responded, saying that
you never saw my mail. (And my mailer works quite well, young man.)
Now you say you saw neither the very old mail nor the very article
you answered! That kind of makes your following words a little lame:
) Also, may I suggest that next time you consider some e-mail or a
) more restrained posting to discover the facts before you blast away
) in public?
My primary objection is that every month you post a message saying "A
backbone site is one which has properties A, B and C." Anyone can
see that there are other requirements which are not mentioned. You
yourself admit that there are. At the time of my first writing there
was a "backbone" site that clearly didn't meet even the publicly-
stated part of the conditions. That one is gone now, but there seems
to be another such. Someone has drawn my attention by mail to
another dubious case.
) ... Rather, "backbone" is an informal designation intended to ...
) improve news propagation, ...
If that is the goal, then maybe the backbone should be defined as
those sites that appear most often in the "Path" lines.
) ... find where to obtain the latest news software, ...
Oh? In that case the backbone is simply uunet! Point everyone there.
) ... know where to obtain experienced and (usually) cooperative
) assistance ...
In that case, list the backbone SAs' phone numbers along with the
drawing!
) provide reliable "anchor" service for UUCP mail,
Like husc6 that for weeks sent out a ".UUX" on the end of uucp
addresses? Like rutgers, which prompted one user at ihlpl to write:
ps. Please be advised that rutgers eats ALL my personal
correspondents, and if anyone knows how to circumvent that
machine, I'll be eternally greatful.
? Or like hao, which turns domainful "!" addresses into mixed "!"
and "@"?
) and provide a very knowledgeable and experienced group of news
) users and admins to discuss items of mutual interest and develop
) new software.
Now we're getting down to the real intent, at least as it is
perceived by the outsiders. The backbone are those people who want
to make the rules, insofar as there are any at all.
This has gotten more rabid than I intended to get, but I still stand
by the content.
Matt Crawford
Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!husc6!bbn!gatech!purdue!spaf
From: s...@cs.purdue.EDU (Gene Spafford)
Newsgroups: news.misc,news.config
Subject: Re: The USENET Backbone (Last changed: 10 December 1987)
Message-ID: <2862@arthur.cs.purdue.edu>
Date: 5 Jan 88 00:29:23 GMT
References: <2802@arthur.cs.purdue.edu> <14191@oddjob.UChicago.EDU> <2844@arthur.cs.purdue.edu> <14203@oddjob.UChicago.EDU>
Sender: n...@cs.purdue.EDU
Reply-To: s...@uther.cs.purdue.edu.UUCP (Gene Spafford)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Purdue University
Lines: 169
In article <14...@oddjob.UChicago.EDU> m...@oddjob.UChicago.EDU responds:
>Gene Spafford writes:
>
>)...some lines from my original response...
>
>Typical. A year or more ago I wrote you mail about this. You never
>replied. About 5 months ago I posted. You responded, saying that
>you never saw my mail. (And my mailer works quite well, young man.)
>Now you say you saw neither the very old mail nor the very article
>you answered! That kind of makes your following words a little lame:
My words have no sign of a limp, that I can tell. :-)
1) I still don't ever recall getting your mail. Just because you have
a fine, well-working mailer doesn't mean all your mail gets delivered,
especially if it uses uucp. Then again, if it was as testy as your
postings, I might have simply discarded it -- no one pays me to read
abusive mail.
2) Read my original reply -- I said I do not *recall* any previous posting.
I did not claim you didn't make one....simply that it was not memorable
(to me). I will probably forget this interchange in a few months, too.
I did not realize I had to archive all of your postings.
3) How do you know I'm a young man? Does that change how your mailer works?
Or are you trying to imply something about my memory?
>My primary objection is that every month you post a message saying "A
>backbone site is one which has properties A, B and C." Anyone can
>see that there are other requirements which are not mentioned. You
>yourself admit that there are. At the time of my first writing there
>was a "backbone" site that clearly didn't meet even the publicly-
>stated part of the conditions. That one is gone now, but there seems
>to be another such. Someone has drawn my attention by mail to
>another dubious case.
Well why didn't you say so? Why don't you send me mail and ask about
the sites in question? Why don't you come up with some suggestions
about how to reword the backbone article to clear up the
ambiguities you perceive? I get (quite literally) dozens of
suggestions for changes to the regular postings every month -- and I
consider them all, and incorporate over half.
And "...anyone can see..."? Really?
>) ... Rather, "backbone" is an informal designation intended to ...
>) improve news propagation, ...
>
>If that is the goal, then maybe the backbone should be defined as
>those sites that appear most often in the "Path" lines.
Greg Woods answered this -- not every site wants to be listed as a
"backbone" site. In fact, some admins of very well-connected sites
are worried about being so designated because of "political" hassles
that might result. Furthermore, how far back do we check "Path:" lines,
and relative to what sites do we perform the analysis? If we took
*every* "Path:" line appearing at *every* site over the past 3 years,
and then took the ones most often mentioned, I bet we'd come up
with something very close to the current list.
>) ... find where to obtain the latest news software, ...
>
>Oh? In that case the backbone is simply uunet! Point everyone there.
This is a naive enough statement so that instead of belaboring the obvious,
I will just assume you are being sarcastic rather than stupid.
>) provide reliable "anchor" service for UUCP mail,
>
>Like husc6 that for weeks sent out a ".UUX" on the end of uucp
>addresses? Like rutgers, which prompted one user at ihlpl to write:
>
> ps. Please be advised that rutgers eats ALL my personal
> correspondents, and if anyone knows how to circumvent that
> machine, I'll be eternally greatful.
>
Your mailer has never broken? Great! Let's have *everybody* route mail
through your machine!
As to the person who had rutgers eat all of his "personal
correspondents," well, I guess that is one way to deal with obnoxious
reporters :-) From my experience, rutgers has a pretty reliable mailer,
and if someone is having problems it might be interesting to find out
how they traced it down to specifically the rutgers system.
Casting aspersions on other sites and admins because of intermittent
mailer failures does *not* refute my original statement: given a
path relative to one of the backbone machines means that your mail
can be delivered with a much higher probability, especially if
you are dealing with dumb uucp mailers.
>) and provide a very knowledgeable and experienced group of news
>) users and admins to discuss items of mutual interest and develop
>) new software.
>
>Now we're getting down to the real intent, at least as it is
>perceived by the outsiders. The backbone are those people who want
>to make the rules, insofar as there are any at all.
The folks on the backbone list are perhaps unique in that they really
don't *want* to make any rules for anything outside of our own
machines. Responsibility for making rules is a burden that none of
them need in addition to everything else they have to do. Instead, most
of them have been with the net for 4, 5, or more years and would like
to see it continue. (In fact, we have the author of the very first
news system, and at least one of the authors of each of A, B and C news
on the list...it isn't a coincidence that their sites provide
backbone-level support.)
The backbone discusses very little, and what little is discussed in the
mailing list is almost always also discussed in one of the public
groups at the same time. Basically, the backbone group (and the
moderators group) discusses how they intend to implement things FOR THEIR
OWN SITES, and then integrate public comment and suggestions. We then
implement whatever we decide AT OUR OWN SITES, suggest it to the
net-at-large, and let others make their own decisions. If most sites
want to follow the lead of the backbone, because of our experience and
perspective, fine. If not, also fine.
Why is there a list in the first place? Because no one person wants
the BURDEN of making decisions, design or administrative, without
feedback from others. Why not just post for feedback by everyone,
every time? Because there are too many people on the network who post
without knowing what they're talking about, or who flame without good
reason, or who post without thinking about consequences. The people on
the backbone list have had to administer major sites, including support
of mail and news, for a long period of time. Generally, they are not
hotheads, they have extensive practical experience, and they respect
the opinions of their peers. Further, needs and constraints tend to be
similar amongst many of the backbone sites. Different viewpoints and
backgrounds allow members of the backbone to see solutions others might
not, and cause them to defend different points of view.
I could go on, but once again I am faced with the problem of not
knowing what your complaint is. Do you not want the members of the
backbone list to discuss things? Do you want another group of people
added to the list? Do you want the posting modified? Or do you just
like to flame?
>This has gotten more rabid than I intended to get, but I still stand
>by the content.
> Matt Crawford
Well, fine for you. I'm not interested in debating it further.
However, I will offer the following to anyone interested and who has
managed to read this far:
1) If you think the wording in the regular backbone posting should be
modified, send me mail with your suggestions. Suggestions for changes
to the other postings will also be cheerfully considered. It's *your*
network!
2) If you think your site qualifies as a backbone site and you wish to be
added to the map, send me mail and tell me about it.
3) If you think that you belong on the backbone mailing list even if you
don't currently run a backbone site, but you have or believe you have some
special insight you can add, let me know. If there isn't a flood
of requests, maybe we'll add you to the mailing list; however, we might
also expect you to help beta test software or gateway some mailing lists,
or answer 10 gazillion (identical) questions from novice users.
As Greg put it, be careful what you ask for -- you just might get it.
--
Gene Spafford
Dept. of Computer Sciences, Purdue University, W. Lafayette IN 47907-2004
Internet: s...@cs.purdue.edu uucp: ...!{decwrl,gatech,ucbvax}!purdue!spaf
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